Final thoughts on the Bosnian pyramid

As it turned out this was a dread­ful title as it just ran and ran and ran…

Possibly not my last ever thoughts, but the only reason I wrote my first post on the sub­ject was that I found the mass accept­ance of what is eas­ily checked non­sense mildly amus­ing. If some­thing endear­ingly bark­ing comes out of Visoko then I may laugh again but my in depth ana­lysis (The sim­il­ar­ity between the Pyramids of the Sun is that the pointy bit is at the top, see below also) is about as excited I can get about it. There is a dark irony to that a coun­try whose her­it­age sites were tar­geted in an eth­nic cleans­ing cam­paign has decided to fin­ish off the job with one of their major sites, but it’s not that amus­ing. On the whole it’s rather dull and I’m sorry to dis­ap­point Billy Rae but I’m not filled with enthu­si­asm to write a com­pre­hens­ive debunk­ing of the site, tak­ing each fact line by line because it’s obvi­ous that Osmanagić isn’t inter­ested in facts. Here are a col­lec­tion of thoughts which might explain why I’m not moved to keep more of an eye on the topic.

Osmanagić is mak­ing claims which he has no evid­ence for

I was going to talk about the align­ments of Mayan pyr­am­ids. This was because one of the reas­ons we ‘know’ the Bosnian pyr­amid is a pyr­amid is because it’s aligned in the car­dinal dir­ec­tions. The reason it’s called the Pyramid of the Sun is that it looks like the Pyramid of the Sun in Teotihuacan. So I fired up Google Earth to take a look at Teotihuacan.

The Pyramid of the Sun, Teotihuacan, in Google Earth

Well that’s not car­din­ally aligned.

You can check for your­self by down­load­ing Google Earth and then examin­ing open­ing this KMZ book­mark with it (alas I lost the book­mark when I switched the host). How ever you twist that pyr­amid you won’t get it to align north-south or east-west. In fact if Osmanagić did have a passing famili­ar­ity with Mayan pyr­am­ids he’d know the most astro­nom­ic­ally inter­est­ing one is fam­ous for not being aligned to the car­dinal points.

I’m not being facetious when I say the com­mon fea­ture of the pyr­am­ids in Mexico, Egypt (and Bosnia) all have the pointy bit at the top. Now people like Osmanagić think that to the pyr­am­ids all have to be built by the same people. Why else would you see pyr­am­ids in two com­pletely dif­fer­ent places? There are three reas­ons:
1] Some rulers have big egos.
An easy way to show off your ego is to build some­thing massive. There might be great skill in build­ing some­thing small and intric­ate but your basic self-centred maniac likes some­thing big and impress­ive. Julius Caesar didn’t cel­eb­rate gain­ing con­trol over Rome by build­ing him­self a small but eleg­ant shed in his garden.
2] The People build­ing the Impressive Thing decreed by the Emperor, King or Generalissimo aren’t stu­pid.
If you’re given the job of build­ing the Impressive Thing you learn pretty quickly how big and wide a wall has to be to avoid top­pling, which leads to -
3] The Laws of Physics are the Same for Everyone
Big is impress­ive and the easi­est way to build big is a cone or, if you want the cone to be built with tes­sal­at­ing blocks (a good idea if you want a stable stone struc­ture) a cone with a square base — which is a pyr­amid. A cone or pyr­amid allows you to reach greater height for any given num­ber of blocks without sac­ri­fi­cing sta­bil­ity. The mys­tery isn’t why some cul­tures built pyr­am­ids, it’s why more cul­tures didn’t. As build­ing tech­niques improve you’d expect Pyramids to become poin­tier, and if you look at the Nubian pyr­am­ids built 1,500 years after the Egyptian pyr­am­ids you notice they are pointier.

So if people are going to build pyr­am­ids because they’re work­ing with the same Laws of Physics under the same grav­ity we’d expect some sim­il­ar­it­ies. A closer look would reveal dif­fer­ences. The Egyptian pyr­am­ids had a point at the top. The Mayan pyr­am­ids had a temple because it was expec­ted that people would go up to the top. I haven’t the faintest idea if the Bosnian pyr­amid is pointy or flat. Osmanagić says it’s flat, but there was medi­eval set­tle­ment, so could the hill have been lev­elled in the mediveval period? If the top of the hill is bull­dozed away, and there are plans to clear the stand of trees at the top, we’ll never know.

In fact this whole being bur­ied thing is a bit of a prob­lem in archae­ology, which is why we have to excav­ate a lot of the time. Without excav­a­tion we can’t say a lot. Yet Osmanagić seems to have radar vis­ion and has already meas­ured the base of the pyramid.

Osmanagić has already been con­tra­dicted by archae­olo­gists like… Osmanagić

Bosnian explorer Semir Osmanagić, who dis­covered the pyr­am­idal struc­ture in Bosnia believes that all three pyr­am­ids were con­struc­ted dur­ing the same period, with the Bosnian pyr­amid the last to be built.

Semir Osmanagić on Bosnianpyramid​.com

The pyr­am­ids in Peru, Mexico and Egypt raise the same ques­tions. Who built the pyr­am­ids and how, where did it all start, which pyr­amid is the ‘mother’ of all pyr­am­ids. I dare to say that the very Bosnian pyr­amid of the Sun is one of the main can­did­ates for the “mother” of all pyr­am­ids”, deems Osmanagic.

Semir Osmanagić on Fena News

To be fair it’s not just Osmanagić who is incon­sist­ent.

Three pyr­am­ids make an iso­sceles tri­angle mak­ing this com­plex unique in the world.

Semir Osmanagić on bos​ni​an​pyr​am​ids​.org

The teams meas­ured the sides of the pyr­am­ids and the res­ults show equal side tri­an­gu­lar shape with each side meas­ur­ing 365 meters in length and a 60% angle (this is a char­ac­ter­istic of an equal side triangle).

News report from bos​ni​an​pyr​am​ids​.org

I don’t know if Osmanagić has announced con­clus­ively that the pyr­amid was made of jam, but if he has I can tell you what next week’s head­line from the site will be.

To be hon­est you’d expect some con­tra­dic­tion as a dig pro­gressed because you find new evid­ence that forces you to change your mind. And often in digs that’s what you’ll hear “We now think it’s a temple because we’ve found…” Yet with this there’s no because. It just is. There’s no reason to sup­pose any­thing, so there’s no prob­lem with chan­ging your mind as often as your under­wear. But then it makes enga­ging with the topic bor­ing. Why should I care that he’s found align­ments on the rising sun or whatever. Next week it’ll be some­thing else.

Unfortunately because evid­ence is optional Bosnia won’t have a unique pyr­amid for long.

Osmanagić has proved Europe’s oldest/biggest pyr­amid is in Serbia or Croatia

It will be true. Do you ser­i­ously think that some intense Serbian or Croation nation­al­ist won’t be por­ing over maps look­ing for their own pyr­amid? And you can bet when they find it it will be big­ger and/or older. I know it will be big­ger or older because Osmanagić has picked his hill. All the next altern­at­ive his­tor­ian has to do is pick a big­ger hill.

Speculators might want to buy prop­erty near Jabuka which was pre­vi­ously thought to be a vol­canic island. A lot of it’s under­wa­ter, but that’s no prob­lem if it was built in the last Ice Age. It would just prove that it’s older than the Bosnia pyr­amid. Dredge the sea bed around it and you will find archae­olo­gical arte­facts*. There is the prob­lem of a com­plete lack of evid­ence to sup­port the pyr­amid idea, but Osmanagić has shown you don’t need evid­ence, just pic­tures of bed­rock. The world’s media are alert to the pos­sib­il­it­ies of pyr­am­ids in the Balkans and where would tour­ists rather go: The bare bed­rock in Bosnia or the Croatian pyr­amid near the beach.

I’ll be depressed if any­one actu­ally runs with the Jabuka pyr­amid scheme, but if I were mayor of a town on the Croatian or Montenegrin coast I’d be look­ing very hard at the local hill and phoning land­scap­ing com­pan­ies for estim­ates. And when the counter-claim comes the Bosnian team will have no defence because they haven’t used evid­ence to sup­port their claim. It will just be their word against the Croats, Serbians and Montenegrins — and the Croats and Montenegrins will have a beach.

Osmanagić could have made this work

The idea of an ancient pyr­amid in Bosnia is not totally absurd. It would be a deeply weird thing to find, but the Stone Age peoples were very good at doing deeply weird things. Here’s an example.

Silbury Hill
Silbury Hill by PhillipC.

This is Silbury Hill a mound made of earth in the Neolithic period before there were any cit­ies in the British Isles. Neolithic people could organ­ise and if it was done once then why not many times? So why aren’t archae­olo­gists impressed? It is a mat­ter of clos­ing ranks. Perhaps it’s an idea to think about how research fund­ing works.

If you don’t get research fund­ing you risk los­ing your job. In the UK a major source of funds is the AHRC which funds all the Arts and Humanities includ­ing a lot of archae­ology. There are not really fixed quotas, so if more archae­olo­gists come in with more excit­ing pro­jects then they get a big­ger slice of the fund­ing pie. In the past pre­his­toric archae­ology did well, but in recent years his­tor­ical archae­ology has done bet­ter and some depart­ments are feel­ing the pinch. Funding doesn’t neces­sar­ily go to what is good. Research on research coun­cils has shown that they often fund things simply because they’re sexy or in the news.

So if this pyr­amid was plaus­ible then archae­olo­gists would be put­ting in fund­ing pro­pos­als faster than you could say “para­site”. You wouldn’t have to agree with it. There’s plenty of research money in examin­ing things from a crit­ical per­spect­ive. All it has to be is plaus­ible enough to be worth examin­ing. A pre­his­toric pyr­amid in Bosnia would be immensely sexy. In my case I have an MPhil spe­cial­ising in pre­his­toric south-east Europe and I’m an archae­oastro­nomer. If there was any­thing in this I’d be able to put in a grant applic­a­tion and add in the cost of a wheel­bar­row to carry all the money to the bank+. Other European coun­tries have their own sys­tems but they all like to fund excit­ing stuff. Stone Age archae­olo­gists would love this to be true.

Initially it looked like a very good site to pick. The pres­ence of a whole load of import­ant archae­ology meant that there was years and years of poten­tially luc­rat­ive work for every­one to do. Osmanagić could have got a lot of people fund rais­ing for him and experts in to provide reg­u­lar news stor­ies and tour­ist attrac­tions. Archaeologists do work with the fringe on occa­sion, espe­cially if they’re occa­sions with money. If NYU is will­ing to take money from Shelby White then dozens would be happy to get money with an ami­able eccent­ric. Osmanagić could have been Mr Bosnia were it not for his out­right hos­til­ity to archae­olo­gical remains because scrap­ing to bed­rock with a bull­dozer really isn’t a sub­sti­tute for painstak­ingly brush­ing dirt of human remains. Now no cred­ible archae­olo­gist will want to asso­ci­ated with him.

It’s not the bizarre pyr­amid the­or­ies that’s the major prob­lem. It’s simply the ignor­ant destruc­tion of Bosnian her­it­age that both­ers academics.

The Pyramids have really bad names

You would have thought someone with an Indiana Jones fix­a­tion would have spot­ted this, but the pyr­am­ids are really stu­pidly named. Search for Pyramid of the Sun and you’ll find a pyr­amid in Mexico. If I were nam­ing the pyr­amid I would have looked at its brood­ing shape and named it the Pyramid of Doom, invent­ing a myth explain­ing the name if I had to. You’d make expos­ing the secrets of the Pyramid of Doom a spir­itual jour­ney which is the sort of mar­ket Osmanagić is try­ing to appeal to. The next pyr­amid would be the Pyramid of Life and the third pyr­amid, when the mar­ket is get­ting fatigued would the Pyramid of Gold which is said** to guard an ancient treas­ure from bey­ond the dawn of time.

Naming a site is a skill. I know of one Inca site named some­thing like Qebinhirca. I don’t remem­ber the exact name but I remem­ber the trans­la­tion is “Kevin’s fort”. You can work out the first name of one of the dir­ect­ors. Around the same time I was look­ing at mega­lithic tombs, but people don’t tend to appre­ci­ate hav­ing a tomb named after them. It’s not the sort of thing you can sell to help fund research. The “Buy a star for your loved one” scam is kind of romantic. “Buy a tomb for your wife/husband” is just sinister.

Perhaps when I finally buy Why Truth Matters I’ll be inspired to take it more ser­i­ously. It’s in my Amazon bas­ket, but I don’t have any­thing to add to it to get the free deilvery.

* Dredge almost any­where in the Mediterranean and you’ll even­tu­ally find archae­olo­gical artefacts.

+ Slight exaggeration.

** Said by me just now.


When he's not tired, ill or caught in train delays, Alun Salt works part-time for the Annals of Botany weblog. His PhD was in ancient science at the University of Leicester, but he doesn't know Richard III.

19 Responses

  1. Phil says:

    I’d say AHRC is a major source of research fund­ing for archae­ology in the UK, as developer fun­ded excav­a­tion sup­plies a bit of money..

    Have you got Schopenhauer’s ‘the art of always being right’ ?

  2. April Barton says:

    Re: “If NYU is will­ing to take money from Shelby White then dozens would be happy to get money with an ami­able eccentric.”

    Published: April 5, 2006

    To the Editor:
    Re ”$200 Million Gift Prompts a Debate Over Antiquities” (front page, April 1):

    The ill grace with which some archae­olo­gists have greeted the mag­ni­fi­cent Leon Levy and Shelby White gift to their dis­cip­line comes as no surprise.

    For the past few dec­ades archae­olo­gists have increas­ingly adop­ted pos­tures that assume their own vir­tue and deny that of oth­ers. They do not seem to under­stand that acquis­it­ors (museums, col­lect­ors and the art and antiquit­ies trade) also have valid interests and import­ant roles to play in our nation’s cul­tural life.

    The interests of acquis­it­ors and those of the gen­eral pub­lic some­times con­flict with those of archae­olo­gists. But that does not prove that acquis­it­ors and the pub­lic are ini­quit­ously wrong.

    Archaeology is an import­ant pro­fes­sion, and archae­olo­gists do import­ant work. They do not, how­ever, inhabit a higher moral uni­verse than acquis­it­ors or the gen­eral pub­lic. Their grow­ing habit of char­ac­ter assas­sin­a­tion of acquis­it­ors is unat­tract­ive and unwar­ran­ted, and should cease.

    Archaeologists should accept the fact that there can be legit­im­ate dif­fer­ences between them and acquis­it­ors, and adjust to those dif­fer­ences and build on what they have in common.

    John Henry Merryman
    Stanford, Calif., April 1, 2006

    The writer is emer­itus pro­fessor of law and affil­i­ated pro­fessor of art at Stanford.

  3. alun says:

    A board-member of the Shelby White-Leon Levy Program for Archaeological Publications has referred to those who think buy­ing unproven­anced antiquit­ies is a bad idea as “jihadists”. Would you really like to go down this road?

    Now I don’t believe for one second that Shelby White would know­ingly fund drug smug­glers or less savoury crim­in­als — but if you have a policy of pur­chas­ing illi­cit antiquit­ies then how would you know that you’re not doing that?

  4. blanche mclanahan says:

    Strange they should spec­u­late the pyr­am­idal dif­fer­ences relat­ing to dif­fer­ent peoples build­ing them.….when the pyr­am­ids were built we are all the same peoples. It has been through time that we have divided ourselves cul­tur­ally, reli­giously and sci­en­tific­ally. When we finally under­stand that we are of one mind, one heart, then we should know that we built them before time.

  5. Alun says:

    Comments opened again because hardly any­one is com­ment­ing at R&D. You can all laugh at me because it turns out the next pyr­amid hasn’t been found in Serbia or Croatia. It’s been found in the Ukraine. But it is older. It’s from a civil­isa­tion des­troyed 65 mil­lion years ago.

    hat-tip Ma’at

  6. leen says:

    Selim Bešlagić, co-founder of the Institute for Materials Construction and former mayor of Tuzla, came to Visoko today to share the pre­lim­in­ary res­ults of sample ana­lysis star­ted on July 5. The ana­lysis meas­ured the com­pres­sion levels of sand­stone found on the Pyramid of the Moon and brecca found on the Pyramid of the Sun, find­ing both types to be unnat­ur­ally hard, the sand­stone ran­ging from 550 – 600 kg/cm2, and the brecca reach­ing 450 kg/cm2. Mr. Bešlagić said, “We don’t have to prove what kind of mater­i­als we have here after this.”

    In the Institute’s ana­lysis of the con­nect­ive mater­ial used to bond the blocks, cal­cium hydrox­ide was indic­ated in the con­struc­tion of both pyr­am­ids, with a 97% chem­ical sim­il­ar­ity. To Mr. Bešlagić, this dis­cov­ery proves that “the build­ers knew about oxid­ized con­nect­ive material.”

    Nadija Nukić, the pro­ject geo­lo­gist who met with the Institute’s experts, acknow­ledged this to be an import­ant res­ult, which will allow for follow-up. “We will do chem­ical ana­lysis of the sand­stone and brecca, to see if this per­cent­age of cal­cium hydrox­ide is pos­sibly a nat­ural eman­a­tion.” Mr. Bešlagić con­ferred with a geo­lo­gical research inti­tute in Slovenia which will con­duct these tests and do carbon-dating on the con­nect­ive material.

  7. Alun says:

    I assume above com­ment was cut ‘n’ pas­ted from http://​www​.bos​nian​-pyr​amid​.com/​n​e​w​s​.​h​tml. For prob­lems with this state­ment see the Hall of Ma’at. This page might explain why radiocar­bon dat­ing is an odd test to per­form on Calcium Hydroxide.

  8. Regarding ori­entaton of the pyr­amid, you may wish to con­sider the effect of pre­ces­sion here. Alignment for the ancients is con­sidered to have been car­ried out using the stars. Given the North Pole pos­i­tion has wandered, (It cur­rently best fits polaris but some 5000 years ago for the Egyptians it was Thuban or Alpha Draconis, some­thing that Egyptologists con­tinue to have a blind spot)

    I would sug­gest that the angle of devi­ation should be noted and cal­cu­lated using archaoastro­nom­ical meth­ods to determ­ine age and cross refer­renced to archae­olo­gical dat­ing. Precession has to be taken into account. That said your coments on mis­align­ment could be misleading.


  9. Robert says:

    No amount of whin­ing or bitch­ing about any person’s ana­lysis is going to make the empir­ical facts on the ground go away. It’s an 800 lb in the liv­ing room. The bloody thing looks like a pyr­amid and it should not be a hard thing to see how it’s put together and with what. If it is found that this struc­ture was the res­ult of delib­er­ate human action then the aca­demic arche­olo­gical crowd look stupid.

  10. Someone wrote that bos­ni­ans are now one mind, and noone looks at other interests. I have to say that noth­ing more can con­nect those nations. Osmanagic is a athe­ist and so is he claim­ing a hill to be a pyr­amid. The time will show that this author was in right.

  11. Vlad says:

    So many jeal­ous hearts. Indigenous Bosnia is what you people are afraid of. And if all of you are so good with hoax and lies why dont you talk about 911, since its what raped all of your souls. Thats why you feel the way you feel about oth­ers pople. Ignorance!

  12. Josh says:

    This is an extremely inter­est­ing and per­haps equally import­ant story. If noth­ing else, it shows how little we know about the ancient past and that of this region in par­tic­u­lar. See http://​video​.google​.com/​v​i​d​e​o​p​l​a​y​?​d​o​c​i​d​=​4​4​4​3​7​3​8​3​9​0​5​0​4​2​9​6​3​7​6​&​a​m​p​;​h​l​=en for some video of a large net­work of tun­nels they are cur­rently excav­at­ing. Unless this is an elab­or­ate hoax, there was def­in­itely some sig­ni­fic­ant con­struc­tion at this site for which there is no sur­viv­ing his­tor­ical record; and the hills/structures are shaped and posi­tioned in the same very unlikely/unusual way as Egyptian pyr­am­ids. We’ve all seen that image from Mars of what seems to be a monu­ment with what looks like a face, but in this case we have much bet­ter images and there are three such structures/hills situ­ated exactly like some of the pyr­am­ids in Egypt. Admittedly this region of Bosnia has a lot of geo­met­ric­ally shaped hills, so per­haps there is some mix of the man-made and nat­ur­ally occur­ring or per­haps it is even entirely nat­ural, but it is def­in­itely worth invest­ig­at­ing. The bot­tom line is the experts are being very stub­born and com­pletely myopic (a little know­ledge is a dan­ger­ous thing but some­times a lot of know­ledge is even more dan­ger­ous). Their argu­ment is that there is no sup­port­ing evid­ence to prove the date of the stones/structures that have been uncovered and no POSSIBILITY that an ancient civil­iz­a­tion ever lived in that region cap­able of build­ing such large struc­tures (the logic being that if there was such a civil­iz­a­tion we would have already found arti­facts, even though they admit to know­ing next to noth­ing about the region’s ancient civil­iz­a­tions such as the Illyrians). The ques­tion is simply whether there is a pyr­amid there (because if there is then there must have been a LOST civil­iz­a­tion cap­able of build­ing it) or just some unknown man-made struc­tures added to a set of very unusual nat­ur­ally occur­ring hills (although that could still be very his­tor­ic­ally sig­ni­fic­ant). So far there has been no con­clus­ive evid­ence presen­ted either way, but the experts are not going to help answer that ques­tion because they are sure they already know the answer and/or because they are afraid of dam­aging their repu­ta­tions by being asso­ci­ated with a hoax or even an hon­est mis­take. Osmanagić’s back­ground and his reportedly fraud­u­lent and mis­taken claims and state­ments don’t help, but his back­ground has provided the motiv­a­tion for his under­tak­ing, and the lack of expert involve­ment may explain the erro­neous state­ments. He is a busi­ness­man and believer in a link between the pyr­am­ids of Eqypt and Latin America, Atlantis, and of course the alien vis­it­ors that tie everything together. He is most likely wrong about a lot of his beliefs and he may be partly motiv­ated by profit, but again the ques­tion is simply whether there is a pyr­amid there, not whether it was built by or for ali­ens or whether it proves a link with other regions with sim­ilar pyr­am­ids. The far more likely explan­a­tion for the ubi­quity of pyr­am­ids and cer­tain reli­gious beliefs (among other things) is that people traveled much farther and more fre­quently through­out his­tory for trade routes than we pre­vi­ously believed (some people, includ­ing a lot of experts, would dis­agree but recent evid­ence from China and other loc­a­tions strongly sup­ports this idea), and that pyr­am­ids are the most obvi­ous struc­ture to build with lim­ited tech­no­logy. The fact is that civil­iz­a­tions around the world built pyr­am­ids (includ­ing but not lim­ited to Egypt, Central America, South America, China, Rome, England, Spain, France, Africa, and the Ukraine) through­out ancient his­tory, so it would come as no sur­prise if some lost civil­iz­a­tion in this region did the same a little earlier than the biggest (non-Chinese?) ones, on a slightly big­ger scale than the biggest (non-Chinese?) ones, or in a unique way (prob­ably dic­tated by their nat­ural land­scape). So I am dis­reg­ard­ing the “experts” and eagerly wait­ing to see if Osmanagić can prove his case. It seems like it should be an easy ques­tion to answer but accord­ing to Osmanagić it may take sev­eral years. If the experts are in fact wrong they will all be very embar­rassed and, more import­antly, Europe will take it’s right­ful place as home of one of the world’s first real civil­iz­a­tions. Otherwise, per­haps Osmanagić is dam­aging an import­ant his­tor­ical site (which could be a pretty bad thing but wouldn’t be entirely his fault) but at least he’s doing some­thing to answer a ques­tion that has been asked by people in that region for a very long time. –Josh

  13. risto says:

    Ego is the prob­lem, ego of great sci­ent­ists; & money of course. Unfortunately.

    There are many cases like this — same for cli­mate change:


  14. Alun says:

    A very good example as “The Great Global Warming Swindle” is another tale which has been shown to be non­sense.

    Evidence is a prob­lem too. Or rather the lack of evid­ence when people hurl accus­a­tions of cor­rup­tion without a shred of evid­ence to back them up. For instance, Risto, would it be reas­on­able for me to point out that you’re on com­mis­sion to sell trips to Bosnia? We both know that’s some­thing I’ve made up. I don’t have any proof at all, but can you prove me wrong? If you can’t is it accept­able to say that you could make a lot of money by per­suad­ing people a hill is a pyramid?

    In my case there might be a fin­an­cial interest. I’ll be look­ing for a job soon. My MPhil was on World Prehistory with a spe­cial­isa­tion in South-East Europe. My PhD will be on archae­oastro­nomy. If this were a real pyr­amid I’d be in huge demand, because there would be other pyr­am­ids in the Balkans to study. Unfortunately if you read the other pyr­amid posts, there’s a lot of evid­ence there isn’t.

  15. billy the kid says:

    Its typ­ical for the ser­bian idi­ots to copy Bosnia..Not only are they jeal­ous that Bosnia never wanted to be Serbian,now they want to go around and search of their own pyramid..Its really funny..They are just jeal­ous of bosnians..Not mainly people care about ser­bia in last 10 years..because most of the lie and dis­tort the truth about the war..They should accept that the war star­ted because of them!!

  16. Alex says:

    In reply to Ronnie Gallagher: I could be wrong, but in reply to your com­ment about the ori­ent­a­tion of the pyr­am­ids, Thuban was pretty much dead on North 5000 years ago. At most it was only a degree or two off, and the slight mis­align­ment of a build­ing aligned using it would prob­ably not be vis­ible to the naked eye. Your point about check­ing these things is thor­oughly valid, though, as by 1800 BC it was way off the pole.

  17. jimbob says:

    It’s funny that it would even be con­sidered a mat­ter of Bosnian pride, because it’s obvi­ous the pyr­amid, if it exists, was cer­tainly not built by any people that could be called “Bosnians” in any pos­sible sense. Not like the Egyptians, who can claim to des­cend from the people who built the pyramids.

    I can see bull­doz­ing the hill, because it’s unlikely whatever archeao­logy exists there is going to be prop­erly excav­ated any time soon, and the claim of a pyr­amid needs evid­ence. If the evid­ence is found, then proper excav­a­tion would begin. Certainly some arti­facts would be lost, but so many would be found…

  1. April 29, 2006

    Final thoughts on Bosnian pyramid

    […] Recent Activity Wikipedia and Me 1 comments.Most recent com­ments from JP vd GiessenCarnivals Ahoy! 3 comments.Most recent com­ments from alun, John Hardy, coturnixBos­nian Pyramid? 19 comments.Most recent com­ments from Trigonometry and Pyramids — Archaeoastronomy Archive, alun, BOSNIA NEWS, Ravnatelj […]Final thoughts on Bosnian pyr­amid 4 comments.Most recent com­ments from blanche mcla­na­han, alun, April Barton, PhilThe Price of a Pyramid 5 comments.Most recent com­ments from Trigonometry and Pyramids — Archaeoastronomy Archive, Thursday, Emperor, Final thoughts on Bosnian pyr­amid — Archaeoastronomy Archive […] More recent activ­ity is lis­ted on the archive page. […]

  2. May 1, 2006

    Final thoughts on Bosnian pyramid

    […] He pos­ted this over a week ago, but it’s damned thor­ough. I have a much higher tol­er­ance for crazy bull­shit the­or­ies because it meshes with my crav­ing for cer­tain genres of lit­er­at­ure, so i’m still fol­low­ing the saga of Osmanagić. […]

    AUTHOR: Rev. Bob
    Research on research coun­cils has shown that they often fund things simply because they’re sexy or in the news.

    As opposed to research­ers who never con­sider sex­i­ness or news­wor­thi­ness when they choose their next pro­ject? Puh-leeez!

    Foundation man­agers are per­fectly cap­able of read­ing their pile of applic­a­tions, noti­cing that 10 archae­olo­gists want to study X, real­iz­ing that they never fun­ded research in X before, and writ­ing a couple of checks. All without read­ing a newspaper.

    To take a recent example, the Templeton Foundation would have adored being able to fund research in intel­li­gent design. Not just because it was sexy, and not because they’d fun­ded con­fer­ences and polit­ical action on the sub­ject (the lat­ter, per­haps inad­vert­ently). They were eager to get to some actual research. So they advert­ised, say­ing “Yoo hoo! We’ve got this big pile of money here for research in ID. Send in your applications.”

    None arrived.

    You can’t fund what nobody wants to research. I just thought it was a little unfair to blame the found­a­tions (and no, I don’t work for one) when research­ers and fun­ders are all sub­ject to the laws of the herd.

    Sorry it’s not solely a mat­ter of blam­ing the research coun­cils. There is simply a lim­ited pot of money and demand exceeds sup­ply.- which is no sur­prise. It’s going to hit pre­his­tor­i­ans harder because of the increased will­ing­ness to fund his­tor­ical archae­olo­gists. So a lot of good pre­his­tor­i­ans are going to be increas­ing strapped for cash.

    Prehistorians, at least in the UK, would have a keen interest in research­ing pre­his­tory in Bosnia. I’d be sur­prised if it wasn’t the same else­where in Europe. The Balkans are one of the pivots of the past. Starcevo and Vinca in Serbia were the places which intro­duced farm­ing to the rest of Europe. Later on copper-smelting ori­gin­ates from the Balkans. Now is this all mov­ing up the Danube or dif­fer­ently? Being able to invest­ig­ate sites in Bosnia would help answer fun­da­mental ques­tions about how the greatest changes in European soci­ety, the inven­tion of farm­ing and metal­lurgy, came to happen.

    There are lots of reas­ons why fund­ing does or doesn’t hap­pen. But in this case a guy with an interest in the past, good con­nec­tions with the local gov­ern­ment and a lot of money or fun­drais­ing cap­ab­il­ity could have had archae­olo­gists fight­ing to work with him.

    If the finds are scraped up by bull­dozer and dumped in a spoil­heap then none of these ques­tions can be answered because we don’t know any­thing about their context.

    AUTHOR: Rob
    I must say I found your art­icle most amus­ing but I hope you eat your words ‘alun’. You are one of those small minded idi­ots who can­not see past their own nose and truely believe that you’ve man­aged to ‘explain’ everything on earth. The Ancient Egyptions built the pyr­am­ids because they were big headed??? Who writes this stuff?

    AUTHOR: alun
    You’re not the only one who hopes I eat my words. So do I. It would be great to be wrong, but the evid­ence provided simply doesn’t match real­ity.

    You may also find the about me page use­ful. It includes vari­ous things includ­ing my name.

    AUTHOR: alun
    Comments are still wel­come, but I’ve col­lated the vari­ous posts at Revise and Dissent, so that’s now the place to com­ment.